Is it possible to move from operations to front office

Front office guys do care- because ops make it happen. We cannot sell a product if that cannot settle in the market now can we? I currently now work in the front office and I know much more than my peers. I know how things work and what needs to be done to get the ship to sail. But it is quiet boring, less interaction and too uptight. We are revenue generators, no doubt but that makes us more ignorant than anything else. I took CHP level 1 last week. On this friday 24th, i will know if i pass or not.

Would anyone know if this certificate will help me advance to work in the HF front office? Can someone let me know if you know any hedge fund operate in Boston,Ma and their office contact? Thanks very much. Thanks a lot. However, if you really want to work in an IB and like the brand name, you may opt for the latter option.

The back office is still better than the unemployment office. When he could not get the contract renewed, he left RBC and ended up working for quant hedge fund in NY as a computer programmer. The pay was even higher at the hedge fund. Not bad for a BO job. The working hours were shorter than a typical analyst job at an investment bank. I think people should be more open minded and less myopic on the idea of going from BB analyst to top PE leads to greatness.

Take which ever job comes your way. There are many routes in life to success, be proactive and explore these different opportunities that come your way.

Great article. However I am curious about one thing. Most banks also have a Corporate Banking arm. And it is client facing too — so that makes it FO.

Would you agree about Corporate Banking? Last summer for my Junior year Internship I was in a back-office role at one of the larger full-service investment banks.

I am now currently a senior at a top 10 undergraduate business school with regrettably a mediocre GPA. What is the best way to make the transition into one of the front-office roles that I hope to obtain upon graduation? I have a strong network, global experience in studying abroad, and a well-developed resume. Any advice that you may have would be very much appreciated.

Thank you. Networking a lot, being very persistent, and knowing how to pitch yourself well are key. Network and get a headhunter. Seriously, headhunters can get you interviews you never would have gotten otherwise. I plan to work there for about 2 years. Is there away to possibly transfer to an FO job in the future?

This will increase your chances. Hi, I am currently in the last semester of my M. I recently took a shot in the dark and got an offer for a Back Office internship at a big bank.

Do you think it is worth taking the position accounting just for the sake of having a reputable name on my CV or should I just start looking for a job without this third internship? Having trouble figuring out a story, your advice will be much appreciated. Thank you! I am graduating in May and have recently accepted a job at GS Operations. I knew this was back office and have heard it is tough to transition into FO, which is my ultimate goal.

Is there any advice on how to transition so I can begin my journey right away? You may find the article useful. Hey, Im doing my M. Sc in International Banking and Finance in the U. K, not a Target School but very reputable. I have been having no luck getting interviews or even internships.

The thing is that I have been networking with a Executive Director in J. P Morgan Treasury Services. If I get offered a position in Operations at J. P Morgan, will I be committing a career suicide by accepting?

Nicole, I know you have experiance in the wealth mangagement field so I will as you. Is a regitered associate in the wealth management possition a front office job, because of client interaction and regularly creating spreadsheets and client reports?

What do think pay and bonuses are like? At the end of the day, you should do the work that you love, that you enjoy your hours doing. So, if that means doing IT or marketing, so be it.

You should never get into a job you hate no matter the money you receive from it. Point is, not everybody has the personality for front-end and will feel much happier in the back end.

On the IT side for example, those guys might love computer problems and working as a team towards these problems. The IT floor in my firm is a big team with good social athmosphere and so on. Just do something with risk you can tolerate and be happy. Also I will add that some supporting functions like IT in my opinion are becoming more and more involved in front end as highly technical front end systems are becoming the norm in any industry, and the classic sales guy less so.

Also, same with Risk. Risk is immensely important in our current financial world, the ability to evaluate risk on customers, portfolios, etc…Has becoming crucial for financial institutions, more so than the sales part, at least in my business. So all Im saying is…Front end and back end are not so defined…The question you have to ask yourself is how much value you bring to the firm, regardless of function. Legal is also considered to be back office? Any thoughts on this? Yes legal is considered middle office not front.

It should be straight forward i. I received an offer to work IB at a smaller bank specialized in emerging markets where there a bit more of a recognizable name.

Problem is the position is not guaranteed after the year and I would be taking a pay cut. A lot of people are calling me crazy for even considering it, but I feel otherwise, I trust that even just getting paid in experience is worth the risk, this could be experience that I could later propel at another firm if worst comes to worst.

However, I could not find any internship that offers some market experience for this Fall semester. Given that I have no significant finance experience yet, do you think that this might help me eventually land a job in the field that really interests me or is it not worth the effort? Having some experience is better than having no experience. This internship can be a stepping stone for you to land a front office role during your junior year.

Not many sophomores get to intern so having some experience is useful. I am currently doing a internship for one of the big 4 in audit london. I wanted to ask should I try to apply for a graduate position in Ib, Wealth management, asset management or should I try to get an internship instead?

PS: I am in my last year at uni and I have also done an internship in a retail bank during last summer in eastern europe so I guess it does not count as much. You may not be eligible to be an intern at BBs summer interns reserved for 3rd years though you can always check with boutiques. It also depends on hiring needs too. Lol…how can I get into the back office?

Getting into back office roles can be challenging too, even though it may seem easier than front office roles. I also actually like credit risk management as a topic though have never worked in it — I know school and job are totally different beasts. Do you think switching careers to finance in a CRM function is a good idea? To me, it poses greater risks but also perhaps greater rewards. Then again, to throw away a legal career which, unlike many other attorneys, I do not hate and the stability of government employment, gives me great pause.

Do you think I have a good chance switching to a regulatory agency or even getting transferred to the legal department of the bank after working a few years in CRM? Perhaps risk management and maybe trading roles this is stretching it a bit. Yes BO is not really enticing. However, is it ok to start off a career after graduation as an Operations analyst and keep networking to eventually make a move to the FO?

Great articles guys. Keep it up! You guys are right about a back office internship not being the end of the world, though. The bank I was with got slammed by the feds so they cut down on the new analyst class I ended up having to apply for other jobs. Thanks for this great post! Hi there. Junior accounting major from non-target, high GPA, previous internship at major asset management firm here.

Also, what about an internship at a top Corporate law firm? You may have more opportunities to deal with lawyers at your IB role. How helpful do you think this will be in me landing a front office role in the US? What are my best chances? I did work in back office right out of college energy trading for 2 years and left to get my masters.

Any thoughts? Your best chances maybe to look for roles within Latam in a global bank and transfer. So this past summer I completed a B. However, I am in the process of trying to land a middle office job out of college. What positions are pretty good for exit opportunities? Is being a financial analyst a M. O position? The subsequent success I suppose is up to some debate. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment here. Now I trade a macro book in a hedge fund. May even come back to BB farther down said road, but FO.

Can you work your way to the NY office? Maybe get to their main office after I graduate? A colleague of mine recently moved from the database development team to portfolio strategy. If you are driven to move to the front office, that might mean that you are naturally more inclined and suited to that kind of work, making it much more likely for you to end up there. You are absolutely right! BO is not worth it on many levels. My 5 year experience is testiment to that.

Having said that I would like to clarify a few points:. I know of a handfull of ppl who transitioned into FO. Mostly trading. Examples: research, trading assistants, risk nd price testing.

BUT a number of these ppl failed and were forced to resign. I suspect lack of training you get as an FO grad. Your base and bonuses do not get much better after first year.

Base grows at snail pase of pc a year. Most frequently closer to 5pc than 10! Bonuses remain at pc of your base for a loooong time.. Director level time in fact. Best way to get a raise is to change jobs. Promotions give you a silly money raise. Stress levels and working hours. Fact is, you work hour days, weekends are common in top banks and on top of that there is a substantial stress level. Believe me a lot will be expected of you for the money. Thanks for adding that. Agreed that back office is not really worth it — for the amount of work, might as well go to the front office if you can.

The role is centered in one team but also allows for rotation around different ones to better understand how they are all connected. I was looking into moving to strategic consulting, how could I leverage such experience to enter that industry? This summer I held a back-office position as an Auditing Intern rising junior for a Fortune company. For next summer and beyond I am looking to transition into Finance and more specifically banking.

Can this internship be leveraged well for a finance position next summer? Or will employers look at it as more of a detriment. Will it also help being that it was only my sophomore summer? Yes it will help you though not exactly relevant to IB roles. I think there are some pretty sweeping generalizations that you make in this article that are unfair and discouraging to people trying to look for work.

I do not think this article is accurate at all. Thanks for your perception and for contributing, Joe. But most readers are more interested in client-facing roles with more advancement opportunities. Are there opportunities to move into IBD? It would be easier if you work in a corporate bank which has an IB arm like JPMorgan so you can transfer internally. This freshman to sophomore summer I will be doing an internship at a midsize commercial bank at a credit risk analysis department.

My tasks will mostly include corporate loans up til 20mil USD risk analysis: financial statement analysis, collateral valuation, creating industry reports, also visiting clients on site, if I wanted.

My supervisor said, if i expressed such wish, I could rotate to other departments for a week or two. My question is how to spin this internship sounding for next year IBD SA recruiting, on which tasks should I specifically focus on and also which other departments at a commercial bank could possibly give me some at least somewhat advantageous or relevant experiences?

Re departments at other commercial banks that can help, I believe readers can give you better input. Do you think it will be a usefull experience regarding my CV and interviews for a FO position?

And if one was to consider FO opportunities, will be almost purely based on networking? I understand that a tax role will have very little relevant experience such as modelling, quantitative analysis etc.

I presume tax dept is considered middle office though I may be wrong. Yes networking will help you if you want to break into FO. Will experiences gained here be considered relevant in the banking world FO role? Not really — your current role might not be relevant. I just started my summer internship in back office of a decent bank not BB and I am starting to regret my decision.

However, summer internship recruiting was a nightmare. I went through 7 superdays at 7BB and wasnt able to land an offer.

Positively, I am working on a project to expand their footprint internationally I think is not a normal ops internship , in which I have daily interaction with senior management, VP in Ops and go to meeting with head of ops,etc.

Therefore, I have some question about:. If I want to land a full time IBD offer, what is the appropriate strategy to network inside that firm without offense my boss in Ops? This bank is a custody bank and they have a big Ops division. I can stay on at school for another semester and try to network for next summer. Should I still stay on and gamble for another year? I am sorry to hear re your experience. It happens to the best of us! Be vigilant and sniff around for information to see which other desks are hiring.

You may also want to network w people outside your firm 2. This is hard to say. Staying another semester may not increase your chances of breaking in though it may help if you can use the time to network even more and gain an IB summer internship next year. Is there any interaction with the front-office managers in this sort of position, and any specific networking opportunities associated with IB ops rather than something like transaction clearing, etc.?

Network a lot. I did successfully make it into one of the top business schools mentioned above, and my pre-B School career was Bank IT. Am a resent graduate and i got 2 job offers : 1 Back office operations BAML 2 A graduate program followed by front office job a local bank treasury. Hard to choose — which one do you like better? The people you work with are pretty important too. Hi, I am a Spanish 26 yo. I would like you to help me with a decision that i have to deliberate in 10 days.

I am graduated in Bussines Administration and after that I ve been doin two internships, firts one in the BO of the largest bank in Spain and other in the Internal Audit also in one of the biggest companies over here. Recently I have an offer in funds settlement in one the the most important post trade banks in Europe at Brussels. Spain has one of the hightest unnemployment rates in Europe and I see my future over here grey. Note: i just turned 26 and i am starting to be seriously worried.

At least taking the offer in Brussels I will be working in English and I will have the chance to learn french. Salary the are much highier that the wage that I can aspire here. The main risk, for me, is stay here and become one of the 5.

Do you have better options? If not, its all in your head. There are IT jobs that are on the development side that are front-office, in that they deal directly with traders. These are the creme de la creme of IT talent.

There is definitely a spot and advancement for those looking to be technical gurus or managers, and are compensated very well. I know of IT developers who went more front office after getting an MBA, but the really sharp top tier school computer scientists stay on a technical leadership or project management path. If I ever find myself in a position where back office, or retail banking internships are my only options… would I take them or not?

Neither would really help honestly because the experiences are not directly transferrable; you may be able to increase your chances if you take the BO job and network a lot. I was just thinking in the event that I may not be able to get FO internships.

Which does seem very possible with all the competition. I only thought of it for the sake of networking. I work in the back office in SA all the above are so true; they gave me a very good and well deserved laugh but the big Corporations do give us generous bonuses. But I enjoyed your article. I have a job working in Margins. Is this back office or is it middle office? Would a job like this be better for making the move to FO than IT or document support? I believe this is middle office but at least you have interactions w clients.

I have the option of an internship with an Investment Bank either in compliance or in wealth management. The compliance role would be on Wall Street, and the wealth management role in Philadelphia. A lot of people are saying Wall Street would be better due to the location and the people I could potentially meet.

I also know the Philadelphia office is much smaller than the New York one. Yes I think Wall Street may be a better option given the location and people you could potentially meet. I may not ask them upright given sensitivity of situation, but I think these are questions you should ask yourself: 1.

Any chance you can transfer to FO role on WS? I have two job offers and am in desperate need of advice — experts who can objectively tell me which position I should take. The first offer is with a large mid-tier North American bank for a wealth management graduate position in London.

They have a global presence and are a large bank, but it is most definitely not a BB and is not big in Europe at all. The latter bank are considered a leader in the Benelux but are not known outside the region. Perhaps it is relevant to mention that I have done two internships, one wealth management with a BB in London whose subsequent job offer I stupidly declined and another with a small hedge fund. My aim is to move to a BB in London after this initial position.

I may be wrong though. With the above being said, if you want to be exposed to various divisions the 2nd option may give you the breadth you need when you first start your career. Tough call. Thanks very much for your quick response and the advice! Really appreciate it, Nicole. However this question has come across my mind a lot of times. Probably slightly better for prestigious jobs, but not a huge difference. Though for something more relevant for something close to my time frame.

Would the same principle apply with internships. For example would interning in accountancy, or for my local council, hurt my chances. My chances with IB firms, I mean. Would that still be a wise option? Recently I got an offer from an investment fund.

The fund just finished the first-phase of its fund raising process. The role on offer is junior associate. I understand your concern, but no! Start off in FO! Learn of the job. Challenge yourself. It will be way easier to move back to BO than vice versa!! I also don't recall reading about this on WSO. So with that said, if you are trying to make the transition Yeah, I'm sure the risk of becoming the next Kerviel is one of the main obstacles that prevents people in settlements from moving to the trading desk.

This is very interesting because I work with a large power firm and a lot of promotions come from accounting and scheduling for our front office team.

I suspect that what you have learned is the old way of thinking but ever since ENRON and Dodd Frank, most firms - if they are smart - take extra precautions to be fully in compliance with all applicable regulations. Thanks for sharing. Omnis voluptatem delectus exercitationem recusandae ea voluptatem sunt.

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Qui ut sunt eaque debitis quis eos dolorem. Odio quae pariatur voluptatibus facere hic. Dolorem qui fuga doloremque nisi perspiciatis. Veniam incidunt quis qui et. Veritatis et accusantium vel hic explicabo placeat ipsa. Ipsum porro eos molestias.

Quia dolores ut assumenda perspiciatis rerum sint. Ut vel ullam maiores voluptatum maiores. Maiores itaque quae est saepe. Aut est inventore ratione placeat quia quia error. Ad error non id provident ut consectetur consequuntur. You can download this screenshot as image or copy to clipboard using browser's context menu. Join Us. Already a member? Popular Content See all. Hi WSO Community- greatly appreciate some thoughts on my situation. My MD has asked me to leave with him to start his own firm.

What's everyone's thoughts? Background: I'm a second year analyst at a specialty boutique. I came to the firm as a mid-career professional after having a background in consulting, tech and a variety of other companies. I now lead a team of 15 people, I'm making more money t…. Fwiw, I'm a junior banker. I know I am seeing a lot of back-and-forth on this topic, but I really need to push back and raise some red flags here.

Having an on-site office presence foundational to our ability to drive efficiencies in a corporate landscape. It's in our DNA. Sure, there is no 'one size fits all' or silver bull…. I want to read the whole story.

It's bizarre to me that an incredibly clear cut self-defense case has become politicized to the point that some liberals are siding with a psychotic pedophile and two communist criminals who tried to kill a kid over the civic-minded kid defending himself, but I suppose that's America in For analysts who in cities that would require a car like LA , what cars do analysts usually drive?

Anyone have experience doing IB with a long distance gf? The firm pays street comp so I should be looking at total compensation in the k range as an AN1. The short version: I am 23 years old and having a hard time deciding whether I should just stay at my current no-name job with 89k salary, hr work weeks or actually try to do something with my life and get a real job with progression.

November Investment Banking. Leaderboard See all. Rank: Chimp Our users shared their thoughts below: Batrick Pateman:.

All Europe. Log in or register to post comments. Free Exclusive Report: page guide with the action plan you need to break into investment banking - how to tell your story, network, craft a winning resume, and dominate your interviews. I read your articles and I was wondering if you could respond and give some advice. I went to a smaller non-target school and majored in Econ because it had a good program and the degree i went with allowed me to take a lot of math. My overall GPA ended up being a 3.

I ended up taking a middle office early careers role at a top BB. I definitely feel that I can use the year of this job to prove that I have skills in due diligence and managing risk, I also feel my modeling skills are above a finance major based on how Econ modeling is much more in depth and am able to communicate that in an interview. I am definitely getting my CFA and i wanted to know what you think I should do before business school to maximize my chances of getting into IB.

Hi, I am a final year undergraduate. Majored in finance. Transferred in a junior so I missed out on much of the recruiting. My only experience is in risk advisory at at middle market CPA firm. I graduated a month ago and my full time offer to from the CPA firm to do the same thing was pushed to January.

I have an offer for a contract for hire position at a BB firm in operations. Is this worth taking for the short term? What do you think of that option? The best strategy here is probably to work at the CPA firm for a while I disagree with a lot of this article.

I on multiple occasions had the chance to jump to the trading desk but it was actually a pay cut. For some context we are not an enormous manager but do manage B.

I am currently interning at the top-tier consulting firm and have an interview with the cash equities operations team at a pretty-well known bank. I personally want to see myself in consulting after some work experience in banks, then does it not matter whether I go for operations or not? If you want to do strategy consulting, then you should continue working at the top-tier consulting firm.

Moving to operations at a bank would be pointless because top-tier consulting experience has a much higher perceived value for any of these roles. Currently doing law in the 4th year with one more year to go from a reputed college.

Reading a lot about investment banking and has become quite interested. I have a gpa of around 2. How will I make that shift into a front office role in an IB after law school. Is doing Msc in finance directly after or taking up CFA the next option? It will be almost impossible if you have a 2. But for general tips on going from law to banking, please see:. Hi, I am a credit risk analyst working for a BB bank.

I have a strong academic background MSc in finance in target university and a good network of junior analysts working in IBD. What do you think is the best strategy to move to FO? Should I use my network of analysts to connect with more senior people to express my interest in IB? To conclude, do you think I have any chance given my current position? Yes you can use your network to break into the industry, and this maybe the better bet.

Otherwise going back to a target school to get your masters may help. My penultimate year summer internship was in credit risk control at a medium sized bank, and even worse, in its commercial clients division. Megan, thanks for your note. A trader trades securities to make profits on the trades themselves, or executes trades and takes a commission from the transaction itself.

Would I be right in thinking that surely working in a department like that would actually BOOST your chances into entering trading due to the transferable skills? Is it easier to go from say a client interactive role to trading, as opposed to a scenario above since the client role is concretely front office? Dunno about the others. Yes this can help 2. Yes, because it demonstrates your interest in the stock market.

I think I should wait to see what offers come up though. If the middle office role ends up being the only offer, then I suppose I could network as it involves working with traders directly. Easy networking would be having someone with hiring power look at my record. It has a treasury department with a trading function that I could possibly move onto, which has a trading function. I do have trading experience summer in a small place alongside my own personal trading and university competitions , a first class degree best degree grade in the UK in finance… but from a non-target; though I have stellar extracurriculars.

So based on that, I think I have a good shot for a front office role… but I think going for the mid role in the bulge bracket could hamper things. That seems to work fine, since one of the finance programmes from a target Cambridge, for instance do ask for 2 years experience they felt the need to note most of their candidates got this experience from a front office role. Before anyone recommends the MBA route, the open days I went to and the websites of top tier business schools made clear note that they look at the prestige of your previous education prior your application to their institution.

Hence I figured a target MSc is a must, either way. Though would you say to make a front office to front office move probably in a different firm in regards to trading, I should stick with this role? Unless the Treasury Dept. Or should I stick to my front office role, as you recommend, while playing up the fact that I trade with my personal account with records such as list of trades, a trade plan etc?

I must add you guys are doing a terrific job here. Otherwise, you may want to check out boutique brokerage houses and gain some sales experience before you transition into a larger firm.

What are my options? I would consider PhD in Quant. I may use your position to network and see if you can move to other roles in finance, especially since you have contacts from bulge brackets. Yes an MBA from a target can potentially help you and you may have to weigh the costs and benefits. I have been working for the past 5 months as a Market Risk Analyst at a top regional bank here in Singapore, and just got an offer for a similar position at a BB.

Just wondering whether getting an MFE after a year of experience would help my chances of breaking in significantly? Yes getting an MFE can help you retool yourself.

You also want to pick a school that has solid overall ranking and business program because more banks recruit there. I am currently a Trader Assistant at a bulge bracket looking to become an actual Trader and would love some insight. The question I have is how do I properly express my interest in moving onto the desk? Should I just ask how best to position myself for an interview for the role? Besides doing a great job day-to-day, how else can I express my strong interest in becoming a trader without being a pest?

Thanks alot for your help. I kinda share d feeling dat back office is not what I really wana do and want to move to the front early on. Can you please give some tips as to how can I get myself noticed and eligible for FO? My academic history is strong but as of now I have no professional degree like CFA etc to my credit.

Which additional courses could help me move to the front? Please advise. The MBA from a target should help you retool yourself. Just wondering if I can get some quick feedback from some of you regarding my situation. I have a job offer for a summer internship program in risk management at ICAP. No matter the job environment, there are so many applicants to be reviewed for any one entry-level analyst job that anything even remotely related is pretty much required for you to have.

Always dress for the job that you want , not the job that you have. Not to mention that if you are given an interview for a front office position, you will be less than ill-prepared. Remember that back and middle office roles are more relevant to traders than they are to bankers because trade settlement, risk management, and other roles are important to the actual business of making money.

Accounting is a building block of any business. Pricing is a critical component of any trade book. In a hedge fund environment, all of those areas have to work cooperatively and each area can offer tremendous insight into understanding trade value, trade positions, and general trade strategy.

While no two journeys are the same, you need to take similar steps to ensure similar results. Go and find someone in the front office who worked elsewhere before, and find out how they advanced:.

All these questions will give you insight into the nature and culture of your fund, and whether or not you can move up the ranks at that particular fund.